PRE-WEST INTERVIEW: BRANDON BLOOM
Brandon Bloom's talk at Clojure/West is about Om in production.
It's hard to believe, but Om was actually started in December 2013. That's just 16 months ago. There hasn't been a lot of time for companies to explore it in production. Brandon Bloom helped build CircleCI's ClojureScript and Om frontend, which is now open source. This will be a wonderful glimpse into the challenges and advantages of Om in a production system.
At last year's Clojure/West, David Nolen introduced Om and the design decisions behind it. And more recently at React.js Conf 2015, David Nolen went a bit deeper.
About Brandon Bloom
PF.tv: How did you get into Clojure?
Brandon Bloom: From 2009 to 2011, I encountered a couple of Rich's talks and writings. Each time I would look at Clojure briefly, but it never really clicked. When ClojureScript was released, my startup was heavily using CoffeeScript, so I decided to take a more serious peek at this new alternative. I immediately fell in love with Clojure and started contributing to ClojureScript. My startup never did get a chance to use ClojureScript, but Clojure on the JVM quickly became one of my favorite tools for prototypes and experiments, and I've lately, I've used it for serious business with some frequency.
PF.tv: You will be talking about the CircleCI frontend, written in ClojureScript and Om. Om is less than 18 months old, and yet it is used in production systems and I assume replaced their previous frontend system. Can you speak to this decision? How was it evaluated?
BB: I honestly can't speak to the decision to use Om. That was made before I got involved. What I can say is that CircleCI was already a big Clojure user and their front end used to be CoffeeScript based. Daniel Woelfel deserves all the credit for choosing Om and delivering a production system with it. I got involved much later.
PF.tv: What were some of the challenges that you faced when developing with such a new library as Om?
BB: Om is/was still evolving. It's got bugs, misfeatures, and other problems. Luckily, I've had the luxury of regular face time with David Nolen, Om's author, out at the Kitchen Table Coders studio in Brooklyn. I think that it's important for new library producers/consumers to interact regularly. Beyond that, the design patterns aren't established yet. It's difficult to simultaneously think deep thoughts about a challenging design space such as UI code, while also building a useful UI for your product. Sometimes, you just need to hack it and you can't be afraid to dig in to the library code while you're hacking it. After that, you need to reflect on whether your solution actually makes sense: Often it doesn't!
PF.tv: What are some improvements to Om you would like to see?
BB: That's a tough question to answer constructively, since David has already picked all of the low hanging fruit that I've pointed out to him. Overall, Om is an absolute delight. That said, it's clearly a first real attempt at the React style of UI development in Clojure. Some parts of Om, like cursors, just never made much sense. Other parts feel like misse d opportunities to truly capitalize on ClojureScript's strengths. At this point, my feedback could be rolled in to notes for a second attempt at this style of UI framework in Clojure.
David has made the very pragmatic decision to assume React.js as a long term dependency. However, once you really get in to the weeds hacking on a UI, it becomes clear, at least it did to me, that less layers is always a good thing. Overall, a virtual DOM implementation is pretty easy, although getting it to perform well is tricky. I'd really like to see a ClojureScript library that drops the React.js dependency in favor of a more direct mapping to Clojure idioms.
The dichotomy between primitive elements and Om components (created via om/build) has got to go. It hurts modularity and refactorability. But I also don't particularly like some users' insistence on hiccup forms for a variety of reasons.
The "no local state" descriptors thing should definitely be the only way Om operate.
The "world in an atom" model isn't quite structured enough. We need something more database-like to manage client/server synchronization. Facebook's Relay is impressive and, if you squint right, their GraphQL looks a lot like Datomic's Pull API. I know that Sean Grove has been experimenting with a DataScript-backed UI. I think that somebody needs to ship a prescriptive framework here that integrates a client-side database with the view layer.
I've also got extensive notes for an alternative events system.
Beyond that, toolability is critical. The framework needs a way to design and test an individual component in the browser. You should have to go out of your way to break that, not go out of your way to enable it.
PF.tv: Where can people follow you online?
PF.tv: If Clojure were a food, what food would it be?
BB: Certainly not a burrito.